Join us as we explore the inner workings of prototype manufacturing with our guest, Dirk Stans from Eurocircuits. This episode explores the crucial role of PCBs in the European supply chain, offering a glimpse into the agile strategies employed by Eurocircuits to retain their market position as a preferred supplier to engineers and designers. Learn how Eurocircuits overcomes hurdles like talent recruitment and training in Europe, and how process optimization is achieved through software and automation developed in-house.
we explore the critical mass of the industry and what a reducing number of PCB manufacturers in Europe could mean in the long term. Dirk also has a role within trade associations and we talk extensively about the need for regulation and a level playing field to ensure the competitiveness, and indeed the survival, of the European PCB industry.
PCB@C-Level was generously hosted at productronica 2023 by Adeon technologies - learn more at https://www.adeon.nl
Like every episode of EMS@C-Level, this one was sponsored by global inspection leader Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Adaptable Automation Specialist Launchpad.build (https://launchpad.build).
You can see video versions of all of the EMS@C-Level pods on our YouTube playlist.
Join us as we explore the inner workings of prototype manufacturing with our guest, Dirk Stans from Eurocircuits. This episode explores the crucial role of PCBs in the European supply chain, offering a glimpse into the agile strategies employed by Eurocircuits to retain their market position as a preferred supplier to engineers and designers. Learn how Eurocircuits overcomes hurdles like talent recruitment and training in Europe, and how process optimization is achieved through software and automation developed in-house.
we explore the critical mass of the industry and what a reducing number of PCB manufacturers in Europe could mean in the long term. Dirk also has a role within trade associations and we talk extensively about the need for regulation and a level playing field to ensure the competitiveness, and indeed the survival, of the European PCB industry.
PCB@C-Level was generously hosted at productronica 2023 by Adeon technologies - learn more at https://www.adeon.nl
Like every episode of EMS@C-Level, this one was sponsored by global inspection leader Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Adaptable Automation Specialist Launchpad.build (https://launchpad.build).
You can see video versions of all of the EMS@C-Level pods on our YouTube playlist.
Hello, I'm Philip Stoten. I'm on the Adion Technology booth at Productronica 2023 and I'm joined by Dirk Stans from EuroCircus. Dirk, thanks for talking to me. Let's start with a brief introduction to EuroCircus. Give me an idea of where you are and the kind of scale of the business and the type of business you do Okay.
Speaker 2:Hi, philip. Eurocircus is a company that I started with my business partner almost 35 years ago and we were always focused on manufacturing prototypes in small series, in the beginning only PCB, and some six, seven years ago we also started doing assembly. So now we offered a full scale for prototypes in small series standard technology boards, from the circuit board until the assembled PCB, and in the meantime we are a group of more than 500 people. So because we deal with a lot of orders, we have a very extensive CAM department, engineering department, software department kind of a little bit atypical company in the market, yeah but it's interesting.
Speaker 1:We were talking earlier on over coffee and you were saying how many customers you have and that the largest customer is way below 1% of your company's turnover. That's really important when you have a volatile market.
Speaker 2:We have about 12,000 active PCB customers in Europe and almost 20, 25% of them have also their boards assembled by us. So at the moment we go up to almost 70 assembly orders a day.
Speaker 1:And when you look at your revenue mix, do you separate it between PCB and assembly? Do you have an idea of what proportion you are in that At?
Speaker 2:the moment it's almost 50-50, although we do much more orders in PCB, but the order value, of course, is smaller than in assembly.
Speaker 1:And you know there's a lot of talk at the moment about reshoring perhaps a manufacturing renaissance in Europe bit of a hiccup with respect to the economy which makes it quite challenging. But you're in a slightly unique position that most of what you do is prototype. I guess there's always been a very strong desire to have that prototype as close as possible to design.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are not in the midst of that storm because our, let's say, the people we talk to are the designers. It's always the designer that is in contact with us because it's always the first stuff that we make. So more than 75% of all our orders is the first time we see this data. And then there is always something to discuss, always something to debate with the customer. So we are not, let's say, the focus of the purchasing department. We are more the focus of the engineering department and of course, they want their goods quickly, so problems need to be solved quickly. So our specialty is data handling, the communication around this data handling and then producing as fast as possible to accommodate the customer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you have to have a super agile manufacturing for pre-nefit super agile lines, because you're not putting hundreds or thousands of anything down, you're putting. You know, you're putting panels down Exactly.
Speaker 2:it's always a new thing that we are making. If you compare us to any volume manufacturer in Europe, it's completely different. We have exactly the same machines, but we don't have the automation around it. We have loaders and unloaders and then a lot of flexibility, and our machines are not filled up to 100% of the capacity, because then your flexibility is gone. So on every machine, we change the priorities and so on. So also the shop floor software is something that we build ourselves specifically to accommodate this special need.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because what your, I guess to your superpower is agility, is speed of response, is the ability to get a new product into your line as quickly as possible. Have you had to develop a lot of technology to do that, or have the suppliers been involved in that roadmap with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, quite a lot. I mean we are one of the pioneers of pooling in Europe and in the beginning if I think back 25, 30 years ago machine manufacturers they were not geared up to that. If you think alone about electrical testing, flying probe testing they could test one single board, but not a complete production panel with 10 or 15 different customer orders on it. It was unthinkable. So a lot of these things we developed together with the manufacturers and now, okay, it's all standard stuff and anybody can test the full production panel. But 25 years ago it was not the case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's important to have companies like you that are really pushing those boundaries for these equipment manufacturers, software manufacturers, A lot of engineers, a lot of designers, a lot of liaison. You must have a pretty big team there. How do you maintain that team? How do you train? How do you recruit? It's difficult to build a good talent pool in Europe at the moment.
Speaker 2:That is true, and that is also why we are spread all over Europe. We are, of course, a Belgian company with a Belgian head office, but our production is in Germany. We also have an engineering company there and we have our biggest production in Hungary. It's about 300 people in Hungary, but we also have an engineering facility in India already for 24 years now, and a lot of these things, for instance on the front end part, are done in India. We have also a software company. We have a lot of software engineers. Most of the things that you see from your service, like our visualizer, is the tool that deals with customer data. Any customer can upload this data to our website and then design for manufacturing is starting immediately. So this is all software we made ourselves, and because that's not something you can buy in the market no, no, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:And does that software automation, but also factory floor automation, mitigate the problem of shortage of talent, or does it mean you require less talent but more highly skilled people?
Speaker 2:No, because for this engineering you need, of course, talent and you need to be able to think in processes and optimising these processes. But until now we managed to find good people. But in my company they think a little bit in a different way than in many other companies that you have in the market, because they think about optimising and filling the production to the highest level possible. In our case it's how can I get something out as quick as possible and as efficient as possible?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's kind of a different way of thinking, isn't it, and not very much driven by that immediate customer demand, no matter how small the job is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I've been telling this already for more than 30 years. I mean a company that makes prototypes and that lives from making prototypes. You can't make series, and vice versa. Somebody who makes series and says we also do prototypes, it's bollocks. I mean you cannot do that in the same factory. You can have multiple factories as a company, but to do it in the same factory is not possible.
Speaker 1:No, and definitely not on the same line. You're absolutely right. You're involved in the various trade associations in the industry, particularly in Belgium. What do you see when you look across the industry? We hear a lot from PCB companies trying to clarify the position of PCB as being critical to the bill of materials and perhaps encourage not just EMS companies but OEMs to buy more of that in Europe. Is that message landing or is that something that's?
Speaker 2:challenged. If I hear around here on the exhibition and all the forums that are going on here, I love hearing EMS companies talking about we need to get back the circuit boards back to Europe, but somehow they seem to have forgotten that they were the cause that everything went away in the first place. So but okay, that's done. I mean, that's the story of 25 years ago, but for me I've always been telling the circuit board is the most important component that you can have in an electronics application. And why is that? It's because all the time it's custom made. It's the designer who made it from scratch and it has not been tested before. If you buy a component, it's tested by hundreds of thousands of people that use this same component for a circuit board is not true, and so it needs more attention. To my feeling, it's much more important than some people think, and buyers that buy circuit boards as a commodity. They don't really understand what they are doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because it's a custom part, it makes it somewhat unique. Do you think in terms of bringing business back and actually stopping business moving out of Europe, it has to be taken as an industry by industry approach, Because I think there's a sense that in Milero and in certain sectors it's more critical than other sectors.
Speaker 2:That is true, and I mean there are sectors where the government steps in, like for instance in the UK, the military and the aviation industry, and there they have rules, they need to buy their boards in the UK. But I think it really comes down to some government interception and the whole thing, Because if you are talking volume and with big EMS or OEM companies, the buyer will always go for the lowest price whatever we do. So if the government doesn't step in and creates some kind of level playing field, then I fear the worst. I mean it really comes down to political courage, to my feeling, despite of what we are saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree there's an element of that. What about competitiveness? My understanding when I talk to people in the EMS industry is if it's a few percent, their customers might wear it. But at 10%, 15%, 20%, it's very difficult for the customers to allow them to pass that cost through. Is automation an option to take labor out? Is there a way of making Europe more competitive with Asia, for example?
Speaker 2:I think everybody knows that if you take the same level of quality and complexity, the difference is about 25%. And look at what the Americans are trying to do with a bill that is in Congress and subsidizing these 25% through a tax reduction if you buy American. I think it really comes down to that. I mean, we can automate, of course, and we can be inventive, but other people around the world can do that as well.
Speaker 2:So, as long as they keep subsidizing things abroad and I like living in Europe, I mean we have a very high standard of living here, but that means that our governments enforce a lot of rules on the companies in terms of ecology, in terms of social responsibility and so on, but these come at the cost, and if the rest of the world doesn't care, then we have a cost handicap. I mean you can automate as much as you want. I mean this cost handicap will be there because we like living here the way we live. So if we are not prepared to overcome this cost, yeah then I don't know. But I think it's pretty stupid Because on one hand, you say we need this level and that's what we want from everybody who is active here, but we are not prepared to pay for it. Yeah, then you shoot yourself in your foot.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, you're absolutely right. I think the underlying message there is a bit of political bravery, a bit of desire on behalf of the state to do that.
Speaker 2:I know it's a bit lame to always look at politics to come with the answer, but I fear that the industry alone cannot do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, particularly when you look at those environmental issues, the social issues, everything that is a burden to European companies. If it just levels that playing field, it's the start, isn't it? Absolutely Exactly.
Speaker 2:And I think we have a bright future Because we have the right people here, we have the right spirit. We can do a lot, and I mean industrial entrepreneurship, even in our high standards of society, is possible, but everybody needs to take their responsibility. I mean yeah.
Speaker 1:And you've proved that, dirk, with your business, with the right approach and the right mix of customers and the right mix of skill base within the business, you can be very successful. Pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for your time and continued success. Thanks a lot, thank you, thank you, thanks a lot, thank you, thanks a lot, thank you, thanks a lot, thanks a lot Thanks.