In this interview filmed on location at Productronica 2023, I speak to Steve Driver, an old friend and a seasoned industry veteran with a wealth of knowledge and insights into the evolution of the PCB industry and its shift towards sustainability. Join me as Steve shares his experiences from his tenure at Jiva Materials, where they're pioneering a soluble PCB laminate, to his role at Studio 29, a venture that's transitioned from being a product design company to a PCB assembler and designer.
The conversation takes an interesting turn as we explore the theme of sustainability, its importance, and its implications for the industry. Steve provides thought-provoking insights into the industry's shift from traditional subtractive processes to additive technology, and how it could potentially reduce emissions and waste. We also discuss the importance of attracting the next generation of talent to continue driving this industry forward.
Learn more about Jiva Materials at https://www.jivamaterials.com and Studio 29 at https://www.studio29.design
PCB@C-Level was generously hosted at productronica 2023 by Adeon technologies - learn more at https://www.adeon.nl
Like every episode of EMS@C-Level, this one was sponsored by global inspection leader Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Adaptable Automation Specialist Launchpad.build (https://launchpad.build).
You can see video versions of all of the EMS@C-Level pods on our YouTube playlist.
Speaker 1:
Hello, I'm Philip Sotan, I'm at Productronica 2023 and I'm on the Adion Technology Board booth with Steve Driver. Steve, always a pleasure to talk to you. What is Steve Driver doing now?
Speaker 2:
I feel yeah. First of all, thanks for inviting me on your booth today. Compliments to Andre, obviously. What am I doing now? Well, for the last four years I've been working with the Giva Materials in England. We've developed a soluble PCB laminate which we're getting some really nice interest and traction on. Since selling my board shop four years ago, that's where I've been involved. I've seen really nice interest and the show's been fantastic.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's been a good show, hasn't it? And you've got some other interesting non-executive roles.
Speaker 2:
I have. I'm working with a startup company in the UK called Studio 29. I've been working with them for four years as well. In 2019, switched from being just a product design company to being a PCB assembler and designer, so it's very interesting yeah interesting stuff.
Speaker 1:
We've been in the industry a long time. I think I first met you when you were running Spemco and hiring out bouncy car sales at the weekend, so going back a long time. Industry's changed a lot since then and a lot of business has gone from Europe elsewhere. It's a very different climate to what it was. I don't know how long ago that was three decades at least.
Speaker 2:
At least three decades, phil. I mean, back in those days you were circuit logistics, one of the pioneers of brokering, I remember. So, yeah, that was back in the early late 80s, early 90s. Massive, massive changes and, as you know, phil, I've always been involved in the change, making everything from single-sided to PTFE and flex-widget boards. And where's it going now? Sustainability has been the theme here at this show this week and I'm so proud to be part of that theme. People are looking for end-of-life issues. We've got a lot of finer lines, maybe smaller volumes as well. So huge changes, a lot of automation. You look around you at the show here. Where are the people going to be? We're talking now about AI. We're talking about automation. The industry's had a lot of legacy issues, had a lot of aging issues. We need young people coming through. You mentioned ourselves. I've been in this industry for 46 years it's an awful long time and still have a passion for it. So, yeah, the change is huge.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's in constant change. Interesting what you say about sustainability I see that as a theme throughout the show and lots of people talking about not just sustainability but all the various ESG goals with respect to diversity and social issues. But on sustainability, I see that in technology. What are you seeing in terms of demand for customers? How concerned are they about their scope-2, scope-3 emissions and how they're measured?
Speaker 2:
That's a nice question, and I think we all know there was an element of greenwashing in a lot of organisations. There were some long-stop targets. People were talking about 2030. Now they're talking about 2040. So, yeah, there are some long-stop targets, but there are some serious players and I think that the ones that are leading the way will take hold of this, because I don't think it's just the sustainability, it's cleaning up the industry as well. If you look around this show here, additive technology is really taking over and there's a lot of challenges now against our legacy subtractive processes, the dirty, messy processes. So, yeah, that's that for me, one of the best innovations I've seen here is an additive technology which the guys have been developing for 12 years and finally, this is their first time at the show, and so I think that there's a clean up. It might not all be about sustainability and it might not all be about circularity, but there's definitely a trend to cleaning up the industry, stop the emissions and stop the waste.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think that's really important, and it's not just important in terms of the environmental impact, but it's important on the impact it has on the impression of the industry that young people have, because we do desperately need to get that young talent in. There seems to be a talent shortage, not just in PCB but in contract manufacturing in many of these areas. We need to somehow make this industry a little bit more sexy. I know that's going to be pretty challenging. When you look at that talent issue, do you think there are ways we can do a better job of making it more interesting? And, on the other side, do you think the automation you spoke of is part of the solution so we can scale the business without recruiting more people?
Speaker 2:
Well, phil, for many years people have been talking about our industry going digital. We are seeing a lot more digital input in the industry now, yes, the young people that we're talking about, that we're trying to encourage into this industry. They are less forgiving of some of the older technologies. They want a clean place to work. It's not just about money, it's about what we're doing to ourselves, what we're doing to our workplaces and the areas of interest that they're in. We've had a lot of digitisation which is making it cleaner. There's a lot of reduction in waste and duplication.
Speaker 2:
If I look at the last three years, particularly in the pandemic years, we all spent our lives on Zoom and on teams and on Webex calls For me quite exhausting, but the younger generation embraced that far quicker.
Speaker 2:
If I look at the work I'm doing with Jiva, every call we have with Jiva the major OEMs we're dealing with is with young people. I'm not going to term them as half-hour age, but they are very, very focused around what they want out of the product and how they're looking at the sustainability of the supply chain, the waste element of the supply chain, and then not just that, it's the ethics around the supply chain the labour use, the countries use. So we've got lots of barriers. We're living in a funny world at the moment. Supply chains were disrupted by Covid, supply chains are now being disrupted by war and they're all around neighbouring countries. You live a little bit further away now, but they're our neighbours and, for a lot of us, our friends and I'm sure, like you and I feel, three or four years ago we were sitting having a coffee in Kiev. Only two years ago we were sitting in a bar in Israel. It's very sad what's going on and the young people are concerned about all of these issues.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and it's interesting. I look at those issues that are driving them and we need to be cognisant of that when we're developing technology and we're creating product, but we also need to be cognisant of that in the workplace to make it an attractive environment. Last question I wanted to ask you I've spoken to quite a few leaders of PCB companies in Europe and the numbers that are being banded around that 20 years ago we had 20% of global public manufacturing of printed circuit boards. Now we have something in the twos, two and a half maybe. That's sad because I think there's just some awesome players in the market here in Europe and some awesome technology. The concern is that there's a critical point at which it becomes too small for the equipment suppliers to support, for the technology companies to support. Are we at risk and is there a way of creating more momentum in the European market?
Speaker 2:
It's a very big question and even if you look at what's happened in the UK this last two or three weeks, where we've seen two very respectable, very credible PCB shops closed, which is tragic, and those two shops were using good volumes of lamina, inks, drills, and it's making it harder for the supplier chain to be supporting the remaining players here in Europe. I've been talking to people here that there's been closures in Europe. There's not even a tenth of the players left that were here 20 years ago. We have had good news for all. This week. You've heard about the new factory being built in Europe. We are in danger, but maybe there's still room for further consolidation. We had beautiful news last week with Amphenol. You're purchasing track wise. We've got a nice consolidation there. We're on a booth with Adion, who consolidated with CCI. Maybe we won't see more closures, but hopefully more consolidation and more focus.
Speaker 2:
Look at what's needed to support who's left. We're very dependent on Asia. We know that Asia has got other agendas and things are moving out into the Philippines and Thailand. Yes, more is needed in Europe, but we need I suppose what we really need is more government support in our local markets to encourage the entrepreneurs to continue to take the risks and continue to invest in technology. We are at a critical but I think we spoke earlier where people say about the PCB being critical. All of the componentry, all of the items on the bill of materials are critical. We've seen people struggling with capacities and with supply. I hope we're at the bottom now. We start to see some growth back in the market. There's mixed stories around this show. I think generally the ones that are remaining have got enough work. We need a bit of a boost in these next few years.
Speaker 1:
I agree with you. It's critical that governments get involved to a certain extent. They need to make sure at least critical parts of the supply chain are protected. Milero and some of those areas need to have direct access to a short supply chain. They need to be bold. They perhaps need to think about PCBs in the same way they're thinking about semiconductors and support it more in that way. Steve, always a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for your time. Keep coming to the show. Thanks, Phil Love to see you.