We step into the intricate world of tech industry, where efficiency and reliability are the most sought-after traits. In this interview, filmed on location at Productronica 2023, our guest, Chris Nash of Indium Corporation, shares his wealth of knowledge. We untangle the complexities of production, zooming in on e-mobility, servers and medical electronics, while unearthing the significance of electrical, mechanical and thermal reliability in advancing each of the complex tech terrains.
We delve into the unique challenges of the e-mobility and server spaces, hearing firsthand as Chris reveals how e-mobility is breaking boundaries and setting the pace in reliability. Meanwhile, as the server industry wrestles with density and heat issues, discover fascinating insights about liquid immersion cooling, the compatibility of fluxes and the enormity of the BGAs being used. With Indium's famous engineer-to-engineer reputation, it's a real treat to get a deep dive in the latest technologies and solutions in manufacturing.
Like every episode of EMS@C-Level, this one was sponsored by global inspection leader Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Adaptable Automation Specialist Launchpad.build (https://launchpad.build).
You can see video versions of all of the EMS@C-Level pods on our YouTube playlist.
Speaker 1:
Hello, I'm Philip Stotter. I'm a product runnaker 2023. I'm on the Indian booth with Chris Nash. What we're seeing in the industry at the moment is this really significant demand for efficiency, reliability just getting stuff right in production seems to have become really really important to people. What are you seeing and how are you supporting that?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think reliability is extremely important, especially in the e-mobility space nowadays, but it is broader than that. It's the server space, it's the mobile space, it's everywhere. I think really we need to look at three facets of reliability. You have electrical, mechanical and thermal reliability. On the thermal side of things, it's either bottom termination components with voiding or it's just getting the heat out of components with some of our thermal interface materials, for instance. On the mechanical reliability, it's really thermal cycling that we're talking about, and especially in the e-mobility space, but it could also be drop shock reliability on more of the handheld devices. Mobility, I think minus 40 to 125, minus 40 to 150. Thermal cycling is really what the industry is focused on and some of the technologies that are coming out alloy technologies that are coming out are exciting and capable of meeting the demands and requirements of the e-mobility market space.
Speaker 2:
On the flux side of the equation, you have a lot of talk about enhanced electrical reliability, or SIR and ECM performance, where spacing is getting tighter. Mission profiles are getting longer, so you need longer times, going from 168 hours to 1,000 hours, for instance. I've seen some of the spacings on the SIR boards going down to 0.06 millimeters. Now, that's not a standard, but I have seen some of those boards On the electrical. Reliability is certainly important. The compatibility of the flux vehicles with everything, whether it's conformal coatings or even in the server market where we have liquid immersion cooling coming into play. How is the flux going to really react with the liquid immersion cooling fluids? There's a lot of discussion around reliability right now within the industry.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's become huge, and you mentioned there e-mobility as a key market. Is that the market that's perhaps pushing hardest in terms of its technical demand?
Speaker 2:
I think so. I think there's different demands whichever market you're looking at, but e-mobility is certainly pushing the boundaries, whereas I think the automotive industry used to be more of a follower. Now it's really pushing the boundaries and becoming a leader in, especially, the reliability space.
Speaker 1:
They've got reliability issues with respect to heat, with respect to mechanics and everything else. What about the server space? One of the big issues, a huge amount of server demand through AI. One of the big issues is how do we get it more density and how do we get the heat away. So there's a big thermal challenge there.
Speaker 2:
There is a thermal challenge and I think that liquid immersion cooling is kind of the next level. That's the buzzword that everyone's talking about From a flux standpoint is that no clean flux residue that's left behind on the board is going to be compatible with the liquid immersion cooling fluids. But you still have a lot of discussion around these very, very large BGAs that are being used on a lot of the server builds. So I've seen 120 millimeter square BGAs, huge IO capacity on these large BGAs. But the warpage of those BGAs is also something to be concerned.
Speaker 2:
We're not just seeing smile type warpage or frown type warpage. We're seeing M type warpage or W type warpage in some cases and some of the technologies out there with like the Durf-Uzalt are able to manage that warpage by really bringing the warpage flat at a certain temperature around 220 degrees C, where you can't really reflow. Sac-305 at 220 degrees C and the bismuth contained the alloys of the truer low temp alloys. They're going to reflow at 180 degrees C. The warpage hasn't gone flat on those large components. So we really have a kind of a sweet spot with the Durf-Uzalt on those large BGAs in the server applications.
Speaker 1:
And what I think is fascinating, chris, is when I think about these technologies as an EMS company or even as an OEM. I'm going to have that problem when I get that new component in and I need to be able to call someone like Indium to fix it. But you need to know about that problem almost before I do. How do you make that connection to component manufacturers, to everybody in the ecosystem, so you're ready when that problem does occur?
Speaker 2:
I think we just have to keep our tentacles broadly stretched right, talk to everyone, having connections with everyone within the industry, and not just focusing on our customers, focusing on our industry partners. Talking with our partners, talking here at trade shows. You know what's the new challenges in the industry that everyone's facing, what's that next challenge that's coming down the pipe? And being ready for that, with our R&D efforts as well, is super, super important for us.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, within the trade associations, being on every single standards committee, involved in every single operation there. One of the things that I've always seen with Indium is you've done a really nice job of that engineer to engineer communication. It feels like when you're talking to a new, you're not talking to a salesperson, you're talking to a technologist. That's a really important part of your DNA.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and especially with material science. We truly believe that material science changes the world, one material at a time, you know so it's. You can't have that material science, though, without the connections. You know, we have to work with the reflow guys, we have to work with the printer guys, so there's not a one size fits all solution to anything anymore. We're seeing alloy divergency throughout the industry. We're seeing a lot of new challenges that are coming our way, and without partnerships, without collaboration, we're not going to be successful as an industry and moving the needle to the next level.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, 90 years of innovation and you're just gonna have to keep doing more and more and more of it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, for sure it's tough to do, but you know, our R&D team is wonderful, our engineering team is fantastic, so it's a challenge in itself, but we seem to find a way.
Speaker 1:
And it's caught. It's a core part of indium. It's a core part of what you do. Chris, thanks for talking to me, thanks for your time and enjoy the rest of the show. Thank you.