EMS@C-LEVEL
As Forbes, Entrepreneur, Fast Company and SCOOP writer, Philip Stoten, continues to talk to EMS (Electronic Manufacturing Services) executives he learns more about their individual and collective experiences and their expectations for their own businesses and for the entire electronic manufacturing industry.
EMS@C-LEVEL
APEX 24 Wrap with Joel Scutchfield and Eric Miscoll: Collaborative Innovation, Human Potential, and Strategic Growth
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APEX 24 Day Two Wrap - Koh Young Technology's Joel Scutchfield and EMSNOW Publisher Eric Miscoll share their insights on the industry, focussing on market trends, talent, automation and transformative power of collaborative innovation. Multiple discussions at APEX 2024 have provided a collective vision for an industry full of connectivity, collaboration and synergy. Following numerous EMS@C-Level interviews, we discuss how CEOs are steering their companies toward open partnerships that blur traditional lines, all while leveraging the strengths of diverse solutions to create a more adaptable and efficient manufacturing landscape.
We pivot to the human element within the manufacturing industry, uncovering how artificial intelligence has potential to reshape some jobs in manufacturing. The emergence of higher-paying, more engaging and more sustainable jobs could help to attract a new generation into the sector, while automation relieves operators of monotonous tasks. This episode spotlights the need to elevate manufacturing's appeal to fresh talent, emphasizing the role of competitive wages and the value of operating cutting-edge robotics in creating a dynamic and fulfilling work environment.
This year companies are focussing on operational efficiency, as the navigate periods of excess capacity with innovative technologies. These strategies are not just survival tactics but catalysts for even greater success and growth in the years to come, allowing businesses to harness technology and automation and stay competitive and agile in anticipation of the next surge. Join us for a conversation that illustrates the resilience and forward-thinking nature of industry leaders in the face of economic challenges.
EMS@C-Level is hosted by global inspection leaders Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Global Electronics Association (https://www.electronics.org)
You can see video versions of all of the EMS@C-Level pods on our YouTube playlist.
hello, I'm philip stoughton. I am on the co-young booth at apex 2024 and, to wrap up the show today, I'm joined by the lovely eric miskell again and this time by our very generous host, joel scutchfield from co-young joel. First of all, thanks for having us here today and party yesterday. What we've been doing is we've been talking to a lot of ceos, a lot of them using your equipment, and it's been really interesting to get their insight on where the industry is and and their experience with co young. That's been, that's been a real pleasure. What have you seen on the booth? You've met a lot of those ceos but you've had a lot of customers buy. What does the show look like for you so far?
Speaker 2Yeah, we've had a lot of those conversations, certainly, and first of all, thank you for being here. I think this has been fantastic and really adds to bringing value to, I think, what we're trying to do collectively as an industry in terms of really understand what each other are thinking in terms of you know how, how we go forward, right, and where are we now? How we go forward, what are you doing, what are they doing? You know how do we and I think that's been the theme of the week, phil, it's been interesting to hear how you know.
Speaker 2We've had this, this connectivity initiative, for several years now, right, and we've started this partnering process and others have as well with various players, and we all know, at the end of the day, that to really get to where we want to go, we have to go beyond partnering with specific providers or suppliers, partners.
Speaker 2Everybody has to be able to play with everyone. Cfx was the initial and still is certainly mechanism to allow for that to happen, but we're getting a lot more requests for doing more with additional providers, but not only providers, but with customers specifically. So it's not a customer saying, hey, you need to partner with this provider because that's who supplies that technology to us. You need to collaborate with us directly as a customer and and through that effort, you know we're gonna, we're gonna accelerate our business by leveraging, you know, the best of what you can offer, what we can offer, etc. Etc. So it's, it's interesting to see the involvement. I think it's, I think it's been a little bit of an eye-opener also to some of the folks that maybe didn't think this was going to happen as soon as it looks like it might need to happen.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think collaborations are a really interesting topic. You know, I have the privilege of spending some time with your customers quite often and we've seen some examples where they've really influenced your development and products. And then we've seen other people. Patrick at Matrix is a great example of someone that just constantly wants to push the envelope in terms of how things are manufactured and he's shaking things up and getting things done.
Speaker 2He's getting results.
Speaker 1Yeah, and you said to me today one of the things that you spotted and you thought was a theme from the show is open collaboration between vendors, and it's not just we'll share our data, but it needs to be secret and needs to be this it's a much more open strategy, isn't it?
Speaker 3No, it really is. I mean, people are staying in their lanes, right. Why waste money developing that solution? And you know, jason, with with ages, talks about the composability, right, which is exactly that finding putting together the solution with the with the best parts, right. And that can resemble different way, just like if I go into a factory, an ems factory. I see you know the smt line. There's different solutions there, right. A lot of times I see co young, sometimes it's one of your competitors, right, but it happens.
Speaker 3Work on that, would you please? Absolutely, but yeah, absolutely. And you're seeing that in the software, you're seeing that with the hardware, you're seeing that hardware with the software. I think it's a great trend.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think your comment about staying in your lane is really interesting. When I was talking to the Cogiscan team about the recent announcement of a collaboration, what I found really interesting there is you've got this combination of deep domain expertise which comes from CoYoung and you've done work in the software field and you've built this KSmart system that synthesizes all that data for all the inspection, and then you've gone that extra mile with Cogiscan to add insight value on top of that across the whole line by being collaborative. And you have to do it that way. You can't do it on your own.
Speaker 2No, that's absolutely right. And we've done similar things with other providers in that space, and I just finished a conversation, literally before I came over to sit down with you two gentlemen, on that very topic. And you know, how do we take it forward from here? Right, okay, we've started the process. We've certainly seen the value. We know we want to take it forward. How do we do that? Right, know, we want to take it forward. How do we do that?
Speaker 2Because you still have to be conscious of the fact that we all have IP to protect to some degree, even though we know we have to get a little more liberal with stretching the boundaries on that to be able to achieve what we need to achieve.
Speaker 2And I think, as time goes on, we're going to see that maybe, maybe it's not as, uh, proprietary as as we think it should be right at the end of the day, you know, and again, there's an evolutionary process and again, we're all in the business of of competing and and and growing, and we have to win business to do that. So we have to be careful, and that's careful, and that's basically what that was, but certainly, or what that effort was all about, but certainly, you know, we're going to figure out a way to go forward. We'll, you know, we'll do our due diligence on both sides to say, okay, you know, here's our roadmap, here's your roadmap, you know where do we come together? Right, when does our roadmap? Here's your roadmap, where do we come together? Where does it fit? Start with that, and then what I see is expansion from there. Time will take care of a lot of this, just like it's driven us forward to this point from where we were three, four, five years ago when we first started having these conversations.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think it's hugely valuable. One of the trends we've been talking about and you talked about it very eloquently in the piece you wrote for SMT today is this this focus on efficiency in the factory, focus on operational excellence at the moment and you know, a lot of that comes from that data, but some of it comes from a desire to have growth in the business, which they're seeing through reshoring, but to do that with the same number of people, because it's really hard to recruit talent. Are you seeing people come to the booth and say, hey, we need automation, we need machines, but we need to operate it with less people?
Speaker 2Yeah, there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 2I mean an additional level or layer of intuitiveness or, you know, in some cases just completely replacing to a great degree the number of steps involved with doing something.
Speaker 2Anything right, pick a topic, pick an event. And I think the next big move or push in that area, phil, is in the structuring and use of AI to basically deliver a data, actionable data, which is something we've talked about many times in a way that again, we eliminate the need for the operator to be the one that's trying to figure out okay, I've got all this great data, what do I do with it? And we've done a lot of that already with the tools that we've created. But I think that's the piece that has a huge benefit, where you see companies like CRM and others out there that are basically Salesforce, et cetera, that are using a lot of AI. You see the commercials on TV to mine information and to provide information very quickly that sure you could have gotten there right, but with a heck of a lot of effort and resource involvement. Now you're able to get that again through the use of AI in a matter of seconds or minutes or something to that degree. So that seems to be the next horizon we have that data.
Speaker 2We will continue to apply that data to our AI applications for all the various efforts that reduce the human requirement, because, again, that is, without a doubt, going to continue to be a constraint that is without a doubt going to continue to be a constraint, certainly based on the input of everyone I've talked to the last few days, but beyond that, how do we now help manage the results of what all that effort has created?
Speaker 1So we look at that collaboration that provides all that data that brings it up to the platform. We look at what we're currently doing to provide insight. The next layer on that is probably AI. You've been around the show like five years ago. When we walked around the show, everything was industry 4.0. Now everybody's got an AI tag of some kind on their booth. Do you think we're still in the? We're still high on the high on the hype curve. We've still got there the valley of disappointment before we start to see real applications. Where do you feel we are on that journey? You talk to a lot of people.
Speaker 3Yeah, well, we probably are in answer to your question. But I mean what you're talking about here with the automation, that automation, human kind of you know. John Mitchell had a good term today talking about the super, the operator right, where, as we get, as it becomes more, the lines become much more automated. Right, there's going to be fewer people doing that and you're going to have you know so. It's a super operator who's capable of not just doing the AOI they can take care of everything right.
Developing Human Potential in Manufacturing
Speaker 3And as a result. That's a higher skill level, that's a higher pay level, too, right? So I think it benefits, and that's really going to be the evolution of what's happening here, way before we get to if we ever get to lights out, right? I mean, that's an ideal that I don't know when or if it'll be realized. But on the AI piece, ai is the great multiplier there, right? That's really going to enable so many things here. Of course, as a psychologist by nature, I always worry about the human side, right, because you know AI is moving so far. My concern is, you know, how are we as humans developing within that, too right? Are we maintaining our smarts and our intelligence? You know, on a presentation I saw today, they were talking about the increase in knowledge. It's like that's not really knowledge, that's data that's increasing. We're generating a lot of data. Data is not knowledge, right, and that's what you're talking about with the actionable insights, right, and then being able to make some recommendations on what to do with that data, and that's what you were speaking to.
Speaker 2I remember we used to look things up in an encyclopedia when we were kids or we were told to you encyclopedia when we were kids or we were told to you know, you know what?
Speaker 1hey, yeah, mom, what is this? What? Yeah, go look it up. Go look it up. Go look it up. Look at one of those encyclopedia.
Speaker 2Yeah look that up in your funk and wagnall right, um, but you know, and that's obviously not the case today you just google it or, yeah, you know, absolutely pick up youtube it or that?
Speaker 3yeah, pick up, pick up, pick up media avenue and it's.
Speaker 2It's all out there. Yeah, there's nothing you can't learn.
Speaker 1So access to a huge amount of data. We put that data on top. Like you say, we're creating more interesting jobs. We're potentially creating better paid jobs, more sustainable jobs.
Speaker 3More attractive jobs too right.
Speaker 1Well, that's what I was coming to the thing of attracting people to the industry. My impression from the CEOs I've spoken to is when they do outreach to colleges and universities and they get people through their factory doors, it's a eureka moment because their perception of manufacturing is dirty, dull, an unpleasant environment. But when they get into these factories, they're not only excited by being able to use the equipment like your equipment and being involved as a programmer or whatever, but they're excited about the fact that what's coming off the lines is maybe going into space or into an EV and stuff like that. There's real value there. But it's a challenge getting that next generation excited about the industry. There are too many of us with either less hair or gray hair in this industry and we need to switch that up somehow.
Speaker 2We absolutely do and I know there's a lot of effort going on to assist with that at the university level in particular, but even down into the STEM programs, et cetera, et cetera. But you're absolutely right and I talked about this also in the piece is it's a pretty cool industry for techies in particular that are drawn to that, right, and we just need to continue to expose and and make them aware of what the possibilities are. You know, we certainly need to come to the table, uh, with regards to making it, uh, you know, attractive from, uh, from a compensation lucrative. You know everybody wants to be a millionaire, right, uh, you know. So you know we have to. We have to be competitive as an industry with some of the other industries out there that that we're going to be competing with for those young resources or something to do, more so on the manufacturing side than with just the theory of design, let's say, right, I sat down with the president of dean of engineering at a very prominent engineering school about a year or so back and we were talking with his head of the specific department on this, uh, simi con initiative and I said you really need to teach and expose the manufacturing side.
Speaker 2It's, it's not all. You know theory and design and and that's always seemingly what it's been and you know you get out of college and you go to your first job and that's when you get your actual manufacturing experience. Why not start that sooner? Why not expose them sooner? Because that's what's going to really draw them to the industry the design stuff you can take anywhere. If you can expose them to the manufacturing piece and get them excited about that and what those possibilities are, get them thinking of a career path that involves that. Now we've done something.
Speaker 1Yeah, and Eric, I know one of the things that you're always saying to me is these companies wouldn't have a shortage of people if they paid them more, so better jobs. You're also always telling me that they need to go make more money yeah, no, absolutely, and that's why I was glad.
Speaker 3But I think that's part of this too, as we think about it. Right, because it's the tedious tasks. Right, we're automating all that with cobots and robots. Look at what's going on in the in the material, uh, the uh yeah with the materials, uh, room. Right, moving all the parts and everything. You don't have people pushing around, right, I mean that can be right. You can automate that. Be away from it, and you're not paying $12, $10 an hour, whatever it is for somebody to be chasing parts anymore.
Speaker 3So those super operators, as John called them, are going to be higher paid work. It's cooler work too, right, you get to play with robotics. I mean this is exciting, right, but then you also have to pay them. You know, pay is you have to pay them a good rate so that their focus is on work, not worrying about at home, and are they going to pay rent and are they going to have enough to get by. That's the purpose of pay is to, you know, get somebody's attention on your tasks. To get somebody's attention on your tasks, get them there and keep them there.
Speaker 2That's the other side of it.
Speaker 3Well, the good ones right. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2And that usually takes care of itself. We hope, but yeah, that's really. You know, my first job out of college was with Texas Instruments and at that time I'm doubting.
Speaker 3You and a million others.
Speaker 2Exactly right, and the reason for that is TI stood for three things Texas Instruments, training Institute and tiny income.
Speaker 3Oh, wow.
Speaker 2So that's what happened, right, all these kids would come in out of college, they'd get great experience and three, four years later they leave. They go get more money somewhere else.
Speaker 3Well, that's what they always say. When you're young, you're paid in two ways right Through money and experience, and when you're young, it's the experience. That's the most important right, Because you gain that experience and the money will get better.
Speaker 1And as you get later on through life it switches around. Interesting that Nico Young have done a great job of retaining and building a really good team. You have a great team here and down in Mexico. Tell me how that team has been doing over the last few months and what the trade show looks like in terms of performance. I know it's been a. It's been a tough q1 it has.
Growth Strategies in Manufacturing Industry
Speaker 2It has been a tough, tougher few quarters, and I don't let me not come back to to the team, because they are phenomenal and they are the reason that we are as successful as we are. There's absolutely no doubt about it. But we're going through a period right now where, in Mexico in particular, I think, there's a lot of excess capacity, and the reason for that is a lot of companies, ems types in particular, invested a lot of money in preparing for, I think, what they thought was a never-ending supply of EV and green initiative, cloud-based orders, et cetera, et cetera, and that's leveled off right. That's leveled off right. That's leveled off. So, until that starts to come back around, we have to find other ways to grow, and that's exactly what we're doing. We know that the new line avenue is going to be a little bit less than what it was during that 2021-22 period, and I think what we're going to see is something more of a slower rather than a ramp.
Speaker 2But how do we do that? So I call it our 11 avenues of growth. One of those consists of, obviously, adding systems to new lines being added by those customers, but we have a lot of technology that can supplement augment, make those same customers more efficient. Again, operational excellence I mean basically how do we now, during this period in particular, help them do more with less, or or the same number of people that they have on staff? We do that through through the case mart, software utilization, through the, through the use of all of these, these tools that we've created that uh, require less human intervention, right, and? And we do that by adding technology like the Neptune, the dispense process for inspecting specific technologies or processes where maybe that wasn't being done before and they're now realizing a need. So their focus becomes how do I get better with what I have? How do I build more horsepower into the lines that I have? And I think we're in a very unique position to help them do that.
Speaker 2And that's what we've been doing this week at the show. The show has been, I think it's been pretty phenomenal so far. We're into day two. I think our, I think our lead count has already surpassed quite extensively what it was last year, and I think last year was a phenomenal show for us. I came away thinking it was probably one of the best shows we've ever had. So my understanding here is that the overall attendance is down just a little bit, but our attendance here in the booth has been up significantly. We were up 50% over day one last year as we started the day today, and I just provided information that tells me we're going to be probably close to that on day two, so I can't complain.
Speaker 1You can't complain.
Speaker 3We got what we came for.
Speaker 2It feels like mission accomplished and a lot of quality. A lot of people that actually have near-term projects, Many of which are for these alternate technologies that either they're not using now pre-reflow, for instance, Again the Neptune, Something that they feel is going to again increase their ability to be more profitable. That's really what it's all about Help with their overall operational efficiency.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think there's a sense of that. I think there's a sense that during this slowdown, it's time to look inside. It's time to to get things buttoned down and working properly and working better for the next ramp, which they're all confident that will be coming down the line. So you know, those investments in efficiency will pay dividends and that's something we've seen throughout the show, it not?
Speaker 2only carries them through. It also sets them up to be even more explosive when things do turn around. They'll have the groundwork laid and all the pieces in place.
Speaker 3I'm ready to go the disruption to the workforce, which downturns traditionally in the old model in EMS. When it's downturn, you're laying people off or getting shorter work times and doing that, You're not laying them off. The people are still there, they're focusing on some other thing, so the disruption is minimized and which means that the retention is because every time you've laid them off, they're running, they're looking for jobs right there and you may or may not get them back. So so I think it's that the whole automation trend as a complement to the workforce.
Speaker 1I think it's been a really positive and I think people have learned through disruption that if you, if you, you are that kind of contract manufacturer that shifts your workforce numbers up and down, when demand is up and down, it is really hard to recruit and retain numbers later on.
Enhancing Efficiency Through Automation
Speaker 2Yeah, there's no doubt, and our technology really plays into that. Right, we are automated inspection. Consider the number of people that are out there that are still doing, oddly enough, manual inspection on a broad scale globally. You know how much better off are they going to be. And this kind of comes back to using the automation where it makes sense, using AI where it makes sense. You know there are so many other more productive things that those folks can be doing than staring at circuit boards with their eyeballs. Let's move them to a point in the line where there's an absolute need because there's not people knocking on the door to get in Necessity.
Speaker 1Mother of invention it kind of works itself out, but we just play very well. It's those super operators looking at screens where they're managing a number of lines. In some cases it's managing lines that are in different geographies and different locations and using your software to enable that. It's valuable.
Speaker 2We've addressed that very well. I think, again, that's a huge part of our success identifying the fact that that is a true possibility that we can achieve with the right initiative and focus. And we've done that right Allowing a single operator to monitor multiple lines or multiple cells, reducing programming time through automation and AI Reducing training, all of those things.
Speaker 1All of those things that help that whole thing. Guys, thanks so much for your time. Continued success with the show. Thursday's always a bit of a tough day at Apex. It's a bit of a light one, but we'll see how it goes.