EMS@C-LEVEL
As Forbes, Entrepreneur, Fast Company and SCOOP writer, Philip Stoten, continues to talk to EMS (Electronic Manufacturing Services) executives he learns more about their individual and collective experiences and their expectations for their own businesses and for the entire electronic manufacturing industry.
EMS@C-LEVEL
Down at the Doctor's with Dr. Bill Cardoso and Dr. Eric Miscoll: AI Curiosity, Tariff Turmoil, Economic Uncertainty, and Much More
As day two of APEX 2025 draws to close, I sit down for some group therapy with Creative Electron CEO Bill Cardoso and EMSNOW Publisher Eric Miscoll to explore the key takeaways from two show days, and more than forty interviews.
The manufacturing world stands at a crossroads where artificial intelligence meets production reality. At APEX 2025, manufacturing leaders are showing up in unprecedented numbers, driven by what experts call "AI curiosity" - a strategic mission to implement AI effectively without repeating the paralysis that plagued Industry 4.0 adoption.
What's fascinating is how manufacturers are approaching AI implementation. Rather than diving headfirst into comprehensive digital transformations, companies are seeking small, tangible projects with clear KPIs and measurable returns. This pragmatic approach stems from hard-learned lessons about technological adoption. Meanwhile, a crucial debate rages between using powerful cloud-based AI platforms versus developing proprietary systems that keep sensitive manufacturing data secure from competitors. For many electronics manufacturers whose customers restrict network connectivity, edge computing isn't just preferable—it's essential.
Market uncertainty continues to challenge capital investment decisions, with tariff fluctuations creating chaos particularly along border regions. One example cited shows how the price of a single vehicle can fluctuate by thousands of dollars as components cross borders multiple times during production.
Through this uncertainty, business agility has emerged as the defining competitive advantage, with global manufacturers able to shift production strategically across regions. Mid-sized EMS companies, especially those with defense industry exposure, are weathering conditions most effectively by exploring automation solutions that boost productivity without proportional headcount growth. Looking toward the future, industry leaders emphasize that technological adoption without clear metrics is directionless—or as one executive cleverly quoted, "If you don't know where you're going, you're never lost."
EMS@C-Level Live at APEX is sponsored by global inspection leaders Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Creative Electron (https://creativeelectron.com)
EMS@C-Level is sponsored by global inspection leaders Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Creative Electron (https://creativeelectron.com)
You can see video versions of all of the EMS@C-Level pods on our YouTube playlist.
Hello, I'm Philip Stoughton. I am at Apex 2025. We're on the Creative Electron booth and it is the end of day two and, given that it's only three hours tomorrow, maybe the end of the show, who knows? Thanks for joining me, guys. Really curious to hear what customers that have been coming to the booth here have been looking for.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:It's been interesting, right, like we talked before, we're looking at this new wave of inspection requirements. Right, we've had a convergence of the artificial intelligence requests and connectivity and 3D X-ray inspection. So we're reaching a point where the technology and affordability of these machines are reaching the point where you're about to break the casp and luckily, we brought to the show a whole suite of new equipment that exactly for that. So we're really excited about that.
Philip Stoten:Yeah, and that fits in very much with what you're doing with JV, with Unicom. Yeah, exactly which is you know one of the few pieces of breaking news we were talking before we came on and trying to figure out what's new at the show.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Yeah, I don't know what's new at the show.
Philip Stoten:That's a big one, that's kind of a big one.
Philip Stoten:Yeah, that's a big one. What I thing is in terms of timing is I've spoken to a lot of ems leadership and eric has the same and a lot of them have sent more people this year than they normally send. Yeah, and some of those people are on a mission just to figure out what we're going to do with ai. Yeah, they're I refer to them as ai curious. They're trying to figure out where to where to use it. Where can I get control of it and how can I avoid maybe making some of the mistakes I made with industry 4.0?
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Exactly Because it's got to the point where people understand that adoption is here. You know, we've been talking about AI for how many years now Five, 10 years right as the wave of the future.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:And I think what people are trying to figure out is how not to get drowned by the wave once it hits them, and then it's too late. So it's that recognizance missions to figure out what to do now before they get left behind. And there's a lot of stuff that can be done from the connectivity of machinery and also all the and again. It's the beautiful thing about AI and LLMs and machine learning models out there is that they're getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper and better and better at the same time.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:And better and better. It's incredible, right, and I think, a lot of people who have struggled with technology. The speed of development now has gained exponential back, so it's very easy to be left behind. Quite a few people now understand that.
Philip Stoten:There's definitely a fear of being left behind, isn't there, rick? But there's also a fear of going down the wrong road, doing the wrong thing.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:Oh that's it Finding the right solution within that. And you're right, I mean it's getting cheaper and better, and that's what technology always does right. It starts here and then it goes down, but it is with AI. It's like which platform do you use? What should I use? They're not leveraging the larger ones, they're kind of developing internally which is an interesting development too. I don't know well enough to know which is better or worse, but there's probably pros and cons to each.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Yeah, there's definitely the risk of having your data dumped into this large model that's going to be used by your competitors.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Right, that's going to be used by your competitors. So what we have is a sandbox, and we pay dearly for that so that we can have our own fenced in. The trade-off is that you'll have the advantage of a very large model, but at the same time, you have some of that confidence that your data is not going to be used by everybody else out there. So you just trade on a sandbox and you play.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:I actually interviewed a guy today and they do that. They do well, name them right. Delvitech down here assumes that it's a new AOI they just launched in North America at their show right, but it's all proprietary and patented, internal and they're doing exactly. And that was his rationale.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:He says I don't want to use something I want to train ours on us and it also gives the advantage of being able to do that Atlas on the edge instead of going to the cloud, which for our customers is good. A lot of our customers unplug Ethernet cables, so being able to do on the edge is a requirement for us.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:By the way, do you ever drive by a cloud? But these big data centers, I love that use for that. It's the cloud, it's this ephemeral thing out there no it's not In the 90s.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:One of my jobs as an early engineer a young engineer at Firmalab, was to be in charge of data centers. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it's a massive bunch of computers.
Philip Stoten:I mean nothing compared to what Google did A cooling system, a nuclear power plant, to keep them going. Cooling system, nuclear power plant to keep them going.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:And few people there. Oh yeah, lights off. Yeah, it's just flickering lights yeah, we've been talking about lights off for how many years?
Philip Stoten:yeah, absolutely we'll get there yeah, I think we will. I think what's interesting you talk about having the data corralled. I think for a lot of these EMS companies, they want the project corralled. They want the project corralled. They want a small, tangible AI project they can cut their teeth on, where they know what the KPIs are, they know what the return of investment is, they know what success looks like, because otherwise it does become this cumbersome beast that Industry 4.0 was. Where do we start? I'm too overwhelmed.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Paralysis, I'm going to do nothing Exactly, and it's one of those things where you can't measure success because you don't really know what a success is. It's one of those things, as Alice in Wonderland has said if you don't know where you're going, you're never lost. There you go. So you just see four-point rope and feel like that You're never lost, but you don't really know where you're going so you just keep on moving.
Philip Stoten:I think Alice in Wonderland would have figured out industry 4.0 pretty well. It seems like a Lewis Carroll kind of story, doesn't it?
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:It's the red pill or the blue pill, right, that's it.
Philip Stoten:There's been a lot of clarity.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Industry 4.0, you take them both.
Philip Stoten:Well, that's it. That's the way it works. So what? What else have you been talking to people about? Talent seems a big issue. Talent, seems you know, you know.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:Listen, one of the big things is still the uncertainty in the market. We're in transition Everybody's talking about. When is this going to be over? Everybody seems to give it a few months to settle down. Right, we're in. We're in that transition.
Philip Stoten:We're in the hoopla state, right With a lot of balls in the air, you know, especially with tariffs.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:Business. Business craves stability and it's just not there right now. So there's a lot of concern, but there's also beyond the concern. People say, okay, but by second half of this year we should have this stuff figured out. By second half of the year, we'll have another disruption that we didn't expect though it's the nature of the business.
Philip Stoten:When I talk to EMS companies and I talk to suppliers about their relationship with EMS companies, building for agility is kind of the key. Where we are now, you think of a global EMS like InCap. I talked to Otto earlier and I think the agility they have within their business, the fact that they are manufacturing in India, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, North America I think that's what gives them the agility and they're focused in their operational excellence on making sure they can move stuff when they need to, and I kind of think that uncertainty is part of the MS game, isn't it?
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:In a way, you can use that as an advantage, yeah, as a selling point. So one of the things that we've gained with this relationship with Unicorp.
Philip Stoten:Is that agility right In a way?
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:you can use that as an advantage, yeah, as an advantage. So one of the things that we gained with this relationship with Unicom is that agility right, Having manufacturing plants in different geographies allows you to shift things around, and so you become a global company that can meet the demands of the customers where they are, when they are and how they need it, so that we can actually be. You know, we can use tariff as an advantage. Not an uncertainty becomes an advantage not necessarily a hindrance.
Philip Stoten:Yeah, if you're agile and uncertainty is a key part of it, I think where some of the challenges are particularly in capital equipment. You take an example of Mexico, where CapEx is down and right now it just feels like you've got to wait a few months before you invest. So, there's a lot of pent-up demand and hopefully that'll break when there's more clarity.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:All people will just decide it's uncertain, but let's just do it. But you know, I'm also asking are you seeing the demand return yet?
Philip Stoten:Not yet right In the US. It's really interesting. I see really strong demand in that middle tier, like $50 million to $200 million.
Philip Stoten:That's a pretty sweet spot to be in as a contract manufacturer right now, especially if you've got a proportion of your business in defense and you're in the right markets. Those companies are doing well. I've spoken to people that are, you know, looking at building new, new facilities, putting new lines on. A lot of people that are looking at how do I maybe double productivity or grow my productivity without growing my headcount very much? So look into automation solutions to do that.
Philip Stoten:but I think here in the US demand is strong. Europe's taking longer to come back South of the border. They're suffering from this hiatus of should we make here. I was talking to someone down there recently. They were having day-to-day calls from their customers saying can you ship tomorrow Because we think there might be tariffs on by Friday? Oh wow, and then the tariffs would come on early and they're saying don't ship, don't ship. And then Monday there would be an adjustment for USMCA-approved items and they'd say ship now, ship now.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:We don't know what's going to happen next. We've got a window. Yeah, what a situation to be in. But I think, going back to what Eric said, I think that's one situation that has to stabilize very soon, because it's such a huge impact on American companies that Washington will have to figure that out. I think that's a big transient right now. I mean, asia is a whole different conversation. It should not be covered in the same tariffs conversation.
Philip Stoten:Yeah, no, no, it's a different conversation. Asia is a whole different conversation.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Your near neighbors are very different. Yeah, but USMCA, Canada and Mexico are such an integral part of the national blockchain that you end up benefiting from the auto industry, European companies, Japanese companies, Korean companies they're not the subject and I think, at the end of the day, that doesn't look good for an electorate.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:No, well, you're absolutely right. The motivation for that wasn't business, though, too, that ostensibly had nothing to do with business, had everything to do with national security, so it really becomes in your priority of things. What comes first? I think in a country it's security, no doubt about it. Right then it comes. So I think, at the end of the day, our current president is a businessman and will be looking to do deals.
Philip Stoten:Yeah, and stuff will get straightened out.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:And things are happening. Things are happening and I think on both sides Things are happening, things are happening and I think on both sides.
Philip Stoten:I have one resource that I've been reading quite a lot on, a very reliable resource, and all they provide is data, and what they've been doing is taking the price of Silverado, which apparently is a very popular pickup, and adjusting it every time the tariffs change, and it would go up by like $7,000, because apparently the supply chain crosses the canadian and mexican border numerous times numerous times. You know really critical parts that are coming from canada, really critical gearbox parts and heavy parts that only come in from mexico that's interesting so it popped up seven grand and then it went down and it was kind of all over the place.
Philip Stoten:It's fascinating to see, like take a single product and just watch it move.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:You know, remember the economists used to have their cheeseburger, their McDonald's in all the different countries, which was fun, right.
Philip Stoten:How long do you have to work to buy a Big Mac?
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:Yeah, that was a fun way of making something much more understandable. So, yeah, happy with the show.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:Yeah, good yeah, and again, three shows are, um, you know, and I've had my opinions about three shows in the past, but it turns out it's a great place, turns out you gotta be there. Yeah, and it's. It's all about pre-show preparation and and having a. You know it all goes back. Right is if you don't have a measure of success, then you're never going to be successful. So over the past few years we've been establishing really good KPIs and then measure them, measure, measure, measure yeah you are what you measure right and you can't improve what you measure, right?
Philip Stoten:well, you can, and you can only improve what you measure.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:You're not measuring it how do you know whether you got? And clearly people miss you because I've been in your booth. People have been coming by looking for you I've interviewed so many people today.
Dr. Bill Cardoso, CEO of Creative Electron:It's incredible, yeah oh yeah, you can notice them. Yeah, maybe we should see here so we don't confuse a handful of times people bill it's.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:it's like, sorry, it's my handsome brother. Well, there you go. It's the same barber, guys, thanks.
Philip Stoten:so much, Dr Eric and Dr Bill. It's been a pleasure. It's been like really good therapy for me. I really appreciate it. I will be back again for my regular consultation and you're Dr Phil.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:I am both not a doctor and I am nothing like that. And, as they say, you know I'm okay, you're okay if the check's okay.
Philip Stoten:Yeah there you go. That's the way. That's the way. Thanks guys. It's been a pleasure Appreciate it Always.
Dr. Eric Miscoll, Publisher of EMSNOW:Thank you, cheers, cheers, cheers.
Philip Stoten:Cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers, cheers.