EMS@C-LEVEL
As Forbes, Entrepreneur, Fast Company and SCOOP writer, Philip Stoten, continues to talk to EMS (Electronic Manufacturing Services) executives he learns more about their individual and collective experiences and their expectations for their own businesses and for the entire electronic manufacturing industry.
EMS@C-LEVEL
MADE IN EUROPE #2: Scandinavian EMS Exceptionalism with Kitron's Peter Nilsson and NOTE's Johannes Lind-Widestam
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The landscape of European electronics manufacturing is undergoing substantial shifts as geopolitical tensions rise and tariff uncertainties loom large. In this revealing conversation, NOTE CEO Johannes Lind-Widestam and Kitron CEO Peter Nilsson share their frontline perspectives on navigating these turbulent waters while maintaining the exceptional performance that has become synonymous with Nordic EMS providers.
As tariffs and regional manufacturing requirements reshape global supply chains, both leaders offer pragmatic insights into the challenges ahead. Despite the push for regionalization, the specialized nature of electronic components means complete supply chain localization remains impractical. "Everyone talks about how fast it is to move a factory," Johannes notes, "but if you want to move the electronic production that the US is making in China, that's going to be an enormous investment."
As the conversation switches gear to the topic of Nordic EMS Exceptionalism, we examine why Nordics companies consistently stand out for their resilience, profitability, and customer relationships. Scandinavia is the most outsourced market in Europe by some distance, but what exactly drives these advantages? Our guests peel back the curtain on the unique cultural factors that have positioned companies like Note and Keytron at the forefront of the industry.
"I think there is no secret formula," Johannes reflects, "it's a dedication to do things better and better, to never become complacent." This philosophy of continuous improvement permeates the entire ecosystem, from management approaches to factory floor operations. Peter adds that when American customers visit their Swedish factories, they frequently mistake production operators for senior engineers – a testament to the depth of talent and problem-solving capability built into their workforce.
The conversation reveals how the region's manufacturing heritage, stemming from telecom giants like Ericsson and Nokia, created not just technical expertise but a distinctive approach to business relationships. Unlike more protective manufacturing cultures found elsewhere in Europe, Scandinavian companies embrace openness and partnership. This cultural orientation creates sticky, strategic relationships with customers rather than merely transactional ones.
Discover why cultural factors and leadership approaches may ultimately determine which manufacturers thrive in this uncertain environment, and why the Scandinavian model offers valuable lessons for the broader electronics industry.
EMS@C-Level is hosted by global inspection leaders Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Global Electronics Association (https://www.electronics.org)
You can see video versions of all of the EMS@C-Level pods on our YouTube playlist.
Welcome and Introduction
Philip StotenHello , I'm Philip Stoughton . Welcome to Made in Europe , an IPC podcast produced by Scoop Communications . I'm joined by Johannes from Note and Peter from Keytron . Gentlemen , thank you for joining me . Very excited to have you both on the show Two people I've spoken to individually . First time I've had you both on a panel together , and one of the topics I want to cover that we'll get to is the kind of success that we've seen in the last decade plus in the Scandinavian industry and how important Scandinavia is to the European industry
Tariffs and Geopolitical Concerns
Philip Stoten. But what I first wanted to touch on was the elephant in the room . Everybody's concerned about geopolitics . Everybody's concerned about tariffs . Where are you seeing it and what are your customers asking you to do in response to it ? Peter , perhaps you can take that one first .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronWell , first of all , I think our direct sales to the US is fairly limited . About 15% of our revenue is direct sales for Keychon . Obviously , our customers , some of them that we sell to in Europe , will also have sales into the US , so there's possible effect there . Now listen , most of our customers , I think , are taking it pretty easy . Some of the US customers are particularly concerned . They're asking us to quote alternatives .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronLook at a couple of them are looking at what actually would it cost them to build it in the US , the way the setup has been discussed now , with the tariffs , usually the price , the cost of the product out of the US would be higher than out of Northern Europe . Because with substantial transformation of the product in Europe , even if you buy the components out of China , japan , transparency , the financial transformation of the product in Europe , even if you buy the components out of China , japan , other Asian countries , the total landed cost out of Europe with a 25% tariff out of Sweden , for example , would be lower than doing the local build in the US with paying 35% tariffs on the sourcing out of Asia there . So that's some of the concern we've seen . I think nobody's going crazy , everybody's sort of trying to sit still in the boat , as we say , and not rock the boat too much and see what happens . And , as I think of the latest information , is there going to be a discussion of some sort of special tariff on electronics .
Philip StotenSo you know who knows what will happen ?
Philip StotenYeah , I think , peter . What's interesting is we've seen the tariffs that have been country specific and then over the weekend we had this new layer coming where we're looking at sector specific . We had the carve out specifically for smartphones and things and it feels like , you know , maybe some pressure from certain US companies that are very dependent on a China supply chain for certain products . But yeah , we're in that situation where we're just blowing up dust and we're waiting for that dust to settle . Is that the same for you , johannes ? Are you having to look at what-if scenarios and kind of do some forward planning and trying to look at a complex supply chain and figure out how you apply tariffs to it ?
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEI think it's as you said before . It's very hard to make a scenario since the scenario changes all the time , but what we can see is that what I'm concerned of , if I am concerned of anything in particular , that is , direct sales going from china to us with the current tariffs . If that , if those volumes are not excluded , it's going to be a significant increase for our customers . And it's very important to point out that we always sell without the the duty on our products , so we we hand that over to our customers and that's important to know . So for our P&L we don't see much of an issue there . But I'm concerned of how our customers' ability to add this cost into their cost of goods is going to affect them . Our sales direct to the US is even lower than Keytron . It's actually 5% . We noted that in our annual report and for some reason that number became very , very important the last couple of weeks .
Philip StotenYeah , it's incredible how those less significant numbers suddenly become very significant and very concerning from a shareholder or whatever point of view . I think for the customers it is challenging and I think for the customers it's hard for them to understand how they do apply those tariffs , what they can apply to the supply chain , what fits inside the USMCA and what doesn't fit inside the USMCA . So what I've seen when I've spoken to EMS leadership but also OEMs , is a kind of a paralysis due to the lack of information . So it is that we're concerned , we need to think about different scenarios , but we don't feel we can make a plan or make a move yet . Is that typical of both how you feel and how your customers feel ? Is there like a let's watch , let's figure out what's happening and let's wait until the dust settles to make a decision ? Johannes ?
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEI would say so . We have not had that how should , should I say deep discussions in any if , what scenarios with the customers . Yet it's more of that . Okay , this is very new . This is very how
Regional Manufacturing Shifts
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEshould I say sporadic . It happens , something happens one day and then it's revoked the next day , and then suddenly something in the middle is is applied , and I would say that we everyone talks about that it's a 90 day day silent period or whatever you call it , but it's still 10 percent tariff of everything .
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTESo we have already changed the game plan . As I see it , that is , in my opinion , not high enough to make any significant changes for how we see upon us as an investment of of um , for example , making a green field or something , but it has already changed the game field a little bit and and that will have effects over time . Everyone talks about how fast it is to move a factory and and I know that peter and his team has moved the factory in us and that and that was within the country and and if you want to move in the the of electronic production that the US is making in China , that's going to be an enormous investment . That is probably not even foreseeable the size of that . So there will be changes . It's just a matter of what it is and for me and for our customers . We have a dialogue , but it's more of okay if this happens , especially for the production we do in China . What can we do with it if that ends up in products in US ? I think that is the most important for us .
Philip StotenYeah , and Peter , from your point of view , when you're looking at your global mix , your global footprint , do you think , okay , well , if we have got a shortfall of US content and we need to bring it in from somewhere , are you thinking maybe it needs to be brought in from Europe or maybe somewhere else within your global footprint We've had , I think if you go back to the previous Trump presidency .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronReally it started back then and then it continued throughout Biden's presidency also with actually transfers out of China on product that you know destined for the US , and some of that also had sort of dual markets with the US and Europe . So a lot of that production has already moved out and then accelerated during 22 and 23 . So I think the only new business we're putting into China as of now we have two sites in China is business for China . The rest has moved out either to Eastern Europe or , in the past year or so , to our new facility in Malaysia .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronAnd if you look at Malaysia , then the tariff situation there seems to be much lower . I think it's 24% out of Malaysia to the US and if you look at a total cost point of view then it becomes very competitive and in some cases I don't really , you know with the Canada-Mexico situation it would even be competitive to that with the change in tariffs going on in Canada Mexico .
Philip StotenYeah , yeah , it's complicated , isn't it ? So when you look at that alignment of your global footprint and you look at your investments going forward , does that cause you pause or does it cause you to kind of push on where you were planning to push on ? I know companies like Keytron and Note , always have ongoing investment strategies .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronWe had . A part of our M&A strategy was to continue growing in the US . As of if you back up a year , that was our strategy . Let's find some more growth in the US . Of course , now , with the supply chain mostly being outside the US and subject to some pretty heavy tariffs when you bring it in , particularly the Chinese manufacturing parts
European Unity and Decision-Making
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, Kitronand I think they will be pretty tough when it comes to this substantial transformation clause , meaning you can't just put it in Vietnam and put a sticker on it and say the country of origin is Vietnam . They've closed that loop . That means that it's going to be tough to be competitive in the US market , being that the imports are coming from Asia , for the most part on components .
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEAnd I don't see that resolved in any short term .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronEverybody's work towards specialization , being really , really , really good at what you do and having the best price available for it , and then serving the entire global whole market with it . Now you're saying , ok , I'm going to do all of this , but I'm only going to be , and then serving the entire global whole market with it . Now you're saying , okay , I'm going to do all of this , but I'm only going to serve this niche market which is going to be in the US .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronIf you look at the global demand , I think it's tough . So for now we're stepping out of that M&A phase and seeing we have facility there we can serve the local market .
Philip StotenWe just have to see what happens , yeah , and focus on organic growth . You mentioned earlier the whole thing of manufacturing in China for China . Are you seeing an acceleration in that region for region development in the industry as we shift away from a global thing ?
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronVery much so . So you know , if you're competing in China and you're competing for contracts where there's public spend involved and not even that , even when there's private spend they are focusing on , it has to be built in China , and many customers are then doing localization drives to localize all content out of the product if possible , and then also have it be built either by someone like Keytron or Note or one of our other Nordic competitors , or have it built by somebody Chinese , local , local guy . Of course . Then the customer always worries about . You know what's going on with my product ? Are they really caring for my baby or not ?
Philip StotenYeah , yeah , and that regionalization that you see , Johannes , you have to balance with the fact that , as Peter mentioned , supply chains are very global . So much as you might be manufacturing in the US for the US and you might be manufacturing in the US for the US and you might be manufacturing in parts of Europe for Europe , much of what is further down on the bill of materials is coming from very specific , very specialized areas . Most of the printed circuit boards are coming from China , Most of the camera modules are coming from Japan , for example . So there's very much a specialization that does require a global supply chain .
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEYeah , and I think I'm always a bit fascinated when you talk about the electronic component market . Everyone talks about the semiconductors because those are the most common and the most complex products . But to make a board you need the passives , you need the electromechanics , you need all the optics and all that stuff , and also the PCBs , of course , and a lot of those are made in China still and there's very limited capacity and capabilities to make those components outside of China . So we can what do you call it ? Fence ourselves out of China from a production point of view , but a lot of the supply of what's fitted on the board and the board itself is still going to be made in china for a number of years to come . Those factories that are making these products are not small and they are not cheap to to duplicate it's . It's a massive change if that is going to move out to china .
Philip StotenAs I see it , yeah , and there's just simply some of it that can't move . You know , as , as peter alluded to is , it's there's , there's too much of it , simply some of it that can't move . You know , as Peter and you alluded to , there's too much of it , and some of it just is not appropriate to manufacture in high-cost regions as well . So there are big challenges with respect to that , I guess .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronBut even European discussions going on , and how do we maintain sovereign capabilities on these things ? I mean , how can we have PCB manufacturing in Europe , how can we have manufacturing of these types of components or those types of components , but at the end of the day , nobody's willing to invest to get to that level right , because the cost of the product and the risk and the environmental impacts and all of that . Yeah , we can get our act together and we can talk about it and maybe there'll be some EU decision , but we're not talking near term on any of that .
Philip StotenYeah . Yeah , it takes time , doesn't it ? It takes some runway . I think what was interesting in the last episode of Made in Europe , when we spoke to Bo from GPB and we spoke to Marcus , there was a sense that Europe seems to be kind of pulling together in response to this renegotiation of the US-European relationship . Is that something you sense ? And I think you know , the Scandinavian EMS companies have always played nicely with each other and seem to be pretty well connected , but do you have a sense that Europe is kind of pulling together in response ? What do you think , Johannes ?
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEI'm a bit . I would hope that you're right in this . I think it's something that everyone talks about it , but my view is that the European Union is very , very slow in making decisions , so I would be surprised if we see any fast moves in this . What we can see , and what I really hope that we see more of , is the determination by the countries in the European Union that they want to make moves the countries in the European Union that they want to make moves . Look at Germany , for example . That has been a really slow moving animal for many , many decades . As I see it , Suddenly there's a changing in how they talk about it and that might have a good impact . So I hope that the new environment that we work in is going to be more fruitful for making faster decisions . But so far I haven't seen that from the European Union at all , but I hope that it comes .
Philip StotenYeah , peter , agility is the key to success in manufacturing and to electronic manufacturing . You've got to be customer obsessed and you've got to be agile enough to respond to what those customer wants . We see the European Union as being something that's been a little bit tied up with red tape and a little bit slow and not as agile perhaps as we are as an industry . Do you see that as a kind of a threat to pulling this thing forward ?
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronI think there's probably a will . But again , you know , moving fast , being agile , that's not really in the nature of many politicians . But again , you know , Johannes mentioned Germany , but there are other nations , also Poland , moving very quickly . I think the Nordic countries aligning themselves with Germany , Poland , the Baltics on moving quickly and agreeing on defense spending and common projects and things like that is very much uniting the sort of Baltic nations around the Baltic Sea .
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEI agree with you completely , Peter . I think that this region is doing a lot more than the rest of Europe that you're mentioning . That is very clear to me as well .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronAnd there's a super big difference between the north and the south . If you look at Italy , spain , other nations down in that area , they sort of oh , they're far away from Russia . Right , every day here there's thunder outside my window because every day , 24-7 , the Swedish Air Force is patrolling the skies .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronI was in a conference call on Friday , this past Friday , and there was another big boom and I looked out the window and I had four black helicopters going west , coming from the east , yeah , yeah yeah , I think it's interesting and it segues nice into the other topic I wanted to talk about with you today , and that is the success that we've seen in the Scandinavian EMS industry .
Philip StotenWhen you look through the , you know whether you look through the top 10 or the top 50 or whatever in Europe , you see a lot of Scandinavian companies . When you look at how companies responded to the inventory bubble going through last year , the Scandinavian companies seem to have performed particularly well . When you look at average EBITDAs , you look at average revenue per headcount , again the Scandinavians have done very well and it seems to be the region in Europe that is most outsourced from an OEM point of view . Why is that ? What is the secret of your success ? Or is it something that you share between you and you are not prepared
Scandinavian EMS Success Factors
Philip Stotento tell anybody too far south ? Are not prepared to tell anybody too far south . What do you think makes the way Scandinavian EMS companies operate exceptional ? Peter , perhaps you want to take that one first .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronI think there are several factors that come into this , but one is , yes , we have fairly strong unions , but there's also this tradition of negotiating the central agreements where you have a long view and even now , with this high inflation rate , you look at what the agreements have amounted to . I think it's 6.2% pay increase over two years , including other benefits . That is not huge for a two-year period when the inflation has been like 25% . Why do they come to that understanding ? Because they're looking at the big picture . We can destroy for ourselves or we can build the future together . There's that understanding connected to that .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronWhen we had really really large electronic industries here , with the telecom development throughout the 90s and into the 2000s , there was such rapid growth because companies like Ericsson and Nokia out of Finland also grew so much that they needed to find more capacity . I think Note grew out of that business way back when because some of those really big contracts were really outsourced to the company that preceded Note . That was a way to to control cost and flexibility back then . Then that grew into . These companies are pretty good , they're developing , they can become our partners and down the road there's some . They started to say , well , we don't need manufacturing at all . We can just do some prototyping and we will have that feedback loop that way , and then , as they move forward , they're starting to lose that prototyping capability also . So it took some time and at the same time the EMS companies grew up so they took care of the employees , they developed the employees , they educated and trained the employees .
Philip StotenRaoul PAL MD , phd , yeah , and you build a talent pool as a result . They developed the employees , they educated and trained the employees . Yeah , and you build a talent pool as a result .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronYeah , you sort of have to have that environment , and that environment can be created in Germany , where they're much more conservative , but you have to allow for that to happen .
Philip StotenYeah , it starts with a great history , doesn't it ? And you mentioned Ericsson and Nokia and there are so many Ericsson and Nokia facilities that became outsourced contract manufacturing facilities . So there's a great history there and there's talent . As a result of that , some of the talent that's in management in those EMS companies came out of those companies or came out of the EMS companies that bought those facilities . And then there is that , as Peter says , there is that very long-termist approach and I think that's absolutely critical . When you look at certain other markets , they tend to think in quarters rather than even years and longer term . What other factors do you think there are , johannes ? What other factors do you think ? Do you think that it's a unique talent environment , for example ?
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEI agree with that . I think a lot came out of these big OEMs that are operating , and not only them . They were also complemented by sub-suppliers that were product owners , not only the production partners . So I think there was a community of competence and technology development that came out of this and technology development that came out of this , that , even though Ericsson and Deez are not producing much here , but we still see that there is a lot of learnings from that period and a lot of innovation coming out of this . So I think that is one part , but I also see that there is a good climate for new innovations in Scandinavia or Nordics , if we include Finland as well . So a lot of new businesses is coming up in in this area and though those companies have a tendency not to produce very much internally , so they will outsource them and with the , with the ems companies having the capabilities and the competence that I think both note and ketron and others have , we will be able to take on their , their , their products and and do a very good production development for them . So we make the products work and we can handle all the logistics and everything around that . So we have a very good setup or a fit for them to grow .
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEI think that how do you say , the companies are living in a connection to each other and I think that has been very fruitful . Also , I think that the people in our region is very open-minded and we don't see the hurdles of outsourcing . We see the potential of it , rather than I think in some parts of Europe it's very . In some parts of Europe you keep your information much closer and that will limit your ability to use other sources and those partnerships that you can grow . So I think it's a lot of things . But also the cost element is important and I think the Scandinavian countries have become much more competitive in the European landscape . Countries has become much more competitive in the European landscape . So when business moves back from China , we have a very good position to take on quite big parts of that movement .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, Kitronthat is happening .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronI think , another comment on that . You know , I hear from some of our US customers that have their manufacturing in Sweden , right , and they come out to our factory floor and they meet the people , the operators , who run the test equipment , that do the troubleshooting and who deliver feedback on the design , and they think all of those people , they are high level engineers , but they're not right . And I know it's the same in many of the Swedish sites , right , the customers come in and they're shocked almost . They say these guys , they're like the engineers we deal back in California , but they're not . They are our operators and that's a big , big difference .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronIn regards to , there are some fantastic opportunities when you look at Southern Europe , you look at France a lot of M&A opportunities , a lot of , you know , really interesting things you could do , but I always hesitate when I look at it because it's not such an open society when it comes to employment and how to work with costs and how to make something successful . Right , in order to be able to succeed , you need to transform something from what it was to what it can be , and for me that looks like a superior challenge in somewhere like you know , france or Italy , possibly , right , that's it . We hit the brakes on . There are interesting opportunities , no doubt , but the culture difference from where the environment we work in is too great to jump into that pool .
Philip StotenYeah , I think the magic word there is culture . You talk about the culture that exists in Scandinavia . It's a culture that goes all the way from the OEM through the MS companies and through to the teams that you employ . There's an openness and there's a trust and , as Johanna said , there's a kind of a vision of what can be done rather than a feeling of what we must protect and what we must not share . So if you can start with that openness , then you have that opportunity . But also , as a result of that , you're creating really sticky strategic partnerships with your customers . You're not in totally transactional relationships . You're in relationships where you are investing in each other . You are investing in vertical integration or adding value in specific products for your customers , which make
Leadership and Cultural Advantages
Philip Stotenyou uniquely positioned to support it . Do you think there is a situation where OEMs behave differently in Scandinavia or OEMs generally have different partnerships to Scandinavian or Nordic EMS companies than perhaps they would with a german or a french company ?
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEI can . I can start . I think it's um , yes , I think so , and I think that that also comes from culture . I think this the nordic companies are run by nordic people and that are more open , and I think that is that that is a strength . I think there's a lot of good leaders in other countries as well , but , but and I think that the business life is getting more and more blended , but still we are as the swedes that you happen to talk to two of them today we are , we are born and raised into this and we are trained in into behaving like this .
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEWhere we we start , we try to make things better all the time , and I think that is that is something that I see and that I feel , and and that makes our life easier . We try to make things better all the time , and I think that is something that I see and that I feel , and that makes our life easier . We try to transform and make our Eastern European manufacturing sites perform as we are doing , because we have a lot of Swedish and Finnish customers in those . So I think that is important for us . So , yes , I think there is a difference . I think the difference is smaller today than it was 10-15 years ago , and I think that there is more and more how should I say more and more influences , both good and bad , coming from different areas , into this . So I think we are becoming , yes , a lot of a lot of companies .
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTELook at Scandinavia and Finnish companies saying that they perform well . I think other companies are looking at our businesses and sayish companies saying that they perform well . I think other other companies are looking at our , our businesses , and say , okay , what are they doing differently ? How can we learn from this ? And and I've heard that from from others that I met that , yes , this is , this is actually some things that they are looking at , but , um , and I think there is no secret formula . I think it's a dedication to do things better and better , to to never be happy , uh , or never be , never be . What does it ? Never become lazy , you can be happy , but but you all ?
Johannes Lind-Widestam, CEO, NOTEdon't be complacent , yeah yeah , exactly , and I think that is for me , that is important , and and I think there's so much more to do and and and I'm I think it's my best days is when I'm out in the factories , shop floors and see the new things that we do and the eagerness to become better in the factories . That is what I think is driving at least our success , I think .
Philip StotenYeah , and I think you know . I think the other thing that stands out to me is exceptional leadership . You know , I'm delighted to have both of you here and I've spent time with both of you in the past . The other thing that stands out to me is exceptional leadership . Delighted to have both of you here and I've spent time with both of you in the past . And , Phil , you are exceptional leaders .
Philip StotenBut when I look across the Scandinavian industry , I see exceptional leadership that is really leading from the front , really driving the culture through the business , are very open within that culture , are spending , as you do , Johannes , an enormous amount of time on the factory floor with the people that are manufacturing the products and , you know , helping to improve that situation and taking care of the team that you have and , as a result of that , that team takes care of you and that team takes care of your customers . So I think leadership plays an important role and I wonder if some of that exceptional leadership training did come out of those OEMs that were originally designing and building great products but also having to manufacture and build out the manufacturing excellence that followed from that . Peter , final thought on that Absolutely , for me at least .
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, KitronI started . I did my first 10 years with Ericsson in manufacturing with the first three or four generations of mobile base stations . So an enormous development , really really quick , but also an enormous freedom if you wanted to change things and learn things and build new things and design new production flows , and there's an enormous amount of freedom allowed from that management . Growing up in that environment that really formed , you know , at least 50% of what I am today .
Philip StotenYeah , yeah , it's significant , isn't ?
Peter Nilsson, President & CEO, Kitronit .
Philip StotenWell , gentlemen , keep doing what you're doing
Closing Thoughts
Philip Stoten. It works . Much continued success . Let's hope the dust settles on everything we're seeing globally in terms of geopolitics and such , quicker than most expect , and let's speak again soon . Thanks so much for your time thank you .