The PCB Supply Chain Squeeze - A C-Level Special with Confidee's Raymond Goh and TLT's Vytautas Ilgunas

PCB lead times are climbing, but the real story isn’t just “more demand.” It’s where the supply chain actually breaks first: copper clad laminate, glass cloth, and resin. I’m joined by Vytautas Ilgunas from TLT PCB and Raymond Goh from Confidee to map the bottlenecks that are turning everyday procurement into a long-range planning exercise, and to explain why availability is beating price across the board.

We dig into Europe’s manufacturing reality, from the long decline in PCB factories to the even more fragile laminate situation, and why rebuilding capacity takes years of commitment, not months of urgency. Then we zoom out to the global picture: how AI servers and data center buildouts absorb advanced material capacity, why that squeeze cascades down into standard FR4, and how single points of failure upstream can ripple through every EMS schedule.

Finally, we get practical about what helps in the short term: better forecasting, earlier ordering, capacity reservations, and approving alternate laminate materials so a program isn’t locked to one source. If you buy, build, or design electronics, this conversation will change how you think about PCB supply chain risk, traceability, and the policies needed to rebuild a complete manufacturing ecosystem. 

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EMS@C-Level is hosted by global inspection leaders Koh Young (https://www.kohyoung.com) and Global Electronics Association (https://www.electronics.org)

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 0:03

Hello, I'm Philip Stoughton. Welcome to PCB at Sea Level. I am joined today by Vitaltas from TLT Printed Circuit Board and Raymond from Confidi. I want to talk about the supply chain around printed circuit boards. We're seeing a real squeeze at the moment. It's not the only thing in the supply chain that's challenged, but it is a really significant thing that we haven't seen for some considerable time. Before we do that, can you just give me a one-minute introduction to each of you and your company? Vitausis, I think a lot of people know about TLT. You're one of the biggest and newest PCB manufacturers in Europe. Give me a quick introduction to you and the company.

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 0:48

Yeah, of course. So hi, I'm Vito Tesilgonas from TLT PCB, Chief Commercial Officer. So we have just built one of the biggest PCB factories in Europe. And our main purpose is to bring manufacturing back in Europe.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 1:05

Okay, excellent. And Raymond, just give us a quick introduction to you and what Confidi does.

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 1:12

Right. My name is Raymond. I'm from Singapore and uh Confidi. We call ourselves a Rectech uh company, but we are procuring and as well as supplying PCBs.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 1:24

Okay. And one of the fundamental parts to what you do is that whole traceability and compliance side of things. That's a really important element.

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 1:32

Yes, that's correct. Compliance is actually the keywords.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 1:35

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so what I want to start with is European printed circuit boards do seem to be having

Europe’s PCB Comeback Meets Reality

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 1:43

a bit of a moment. European EMS is actually having a pretty good time too. And some of that is due to the defense market, some of it's due to the uh AI market. I think automotive, we're still seeing um challenges there. Butabsis, do you think that has caught the printed circuit board industry by surprise or the EMS industry by surprise? And everything we've been saying about the supply chain being lacking for the last five years in Europe is kind of coming home to roost.

The Capacity Collapse Behind Shortages

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 2:17

Yeah, so I think we should start with a bigger picture. Uh because 20 years ago, Europe had more than 600 PCB factories and around 20 laminate manufacturers. Today we have fewer than 150 PCB manufacturers, and just around 30 factories generate more than 70% of the European PCB market. And when we talk about laminates, actually, the situation is even more critical. Today Europe has only one laminate manufacturer left. And this is where today, yeah, and this is where today's shortage began. Because we didn't lose demand, we lost manufacturing capacity.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 3:02

Yeah. Yeah, and there's some correction in that with what you've been doing, with also some of the investments we've seen by some of those other very large companies. Raymond, from your point of view, what are you seeing in Europe and what are you seeing globally? Because my sense is that this problem's being felt, maybe not to the same degree, but also in the in the US as well, where they have less capacity. And again, they've lost that that connection to the laminate part of the supply chain.

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 3:32

Right.

AI Demand Drains Laminate Supply

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 3:33

Uh I'll just like to add on on uh what Fantatis has been saying. I think the shortages come from first the uh the glass fabric. And then because of the AI uh high demand from the AI drive, it has uh taken a lot of capacity. And uh, like what you're saying, it's sucking away the oxygen in the room. But then today we are seeing that the uh because of the high demand, especially in the advanced uh material, right, it has now uh been cascaded down to even the standard FR4. Right. Let's take, for example, in uh in Asia, right? FR4, we can uh factories in China, for example, they can easily get FR4 within three days. Right in the good old days. Today we're looking at a lead time of up to three months. That's inside. And uh yeah, and then when we're talking about the more advanced material, um the Panasonic, the M6, M7, Micron 6, Micron 7, um, we are looking at what six months, nine months lead time. Yeah. I just had a communication with uh somebody from TUC, and um we're hearing that uh they're offering like uh more than six months lead time.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 4:53

Yeah.

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 4:53

So that's what's happening now.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 4:56

Yeah, and is that reliable lead time? I mean, my sense is that a lot of people are providing, you know, um, I guess projections of lead time, but not guarantees. Um, is it purely that those laminate facilities are making much more money per square meter by making stuff for the AI market, which is hyperscaling and quite happy to spend?

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 5:22

I believe uh part of it is true because uh they're selling in terms of the uh the advanced material are selling at much higher price. Right. And uh what we have to know is that in order to produce uh one square meter of an advanced uh CCL, right, it would take the capacity of probably five square meters of a standard FR4. Right. So that's that's where you see the capacity is going away. And at the same time, uh price continue to go up because the demand is going up.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 5:58

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So Tatus, when you look at your own supply chain, are you buying lamin, you're buying laminate from that one place maybe that's left in Europe. But what about what about the uh remainder of your laminate? And is it something that suddenly you think, hey, when we built this factory, we should have put a laminate facility on the side of it?

Forecasting Becomes The New Price

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 6:21

Uh yeah, so you know, speaking about laminates, I think uh everything starts with uh forecasting. And today availability is more important than price. And uh I really agree with Collector because at the moment, you know, everyone speaking about AI and AI servers uh and so on and so forth. But actually, in Europe, almost no one can produce PCB for AI at scale, maybe just for prototype. So, like example, we are working with customers in defense and critical infrastructure sectors, and they understand that you cannot wait until demand appears. Materials need to be planned and capacity need to be reserved. And that's why close cooperation between customer and PCB manufacturer is becoming more important than ever.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 7:24

And that custom that communication goes all the way along the supply chain, much as you communicate with your customers to let them know when that laminate is available and you can deliver. You need a very honest and clear communication with your laminate supplier, and clearly those laminate suppliers are being disrupted in a good way from their point of view by the massive additional demand they're seeing. How have they responded? Are they up in capacity? For example, Vitas, as you talked about the one laminate supplier left in Europe, are they looking at building additional capacity and how long a lead time is it to is it for them to actually increase their capacity?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 8:07

So, in this case, you know, we are working not just with this European laminate uh manufactured. So it really depends on uh product. If we are speaking about the standard FL4, it could be really different, could be from uh one month, could be till uh five months. So you need to secure everything in advance, yeah.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 8:34

Raymond, you mentioned that you thought it was partly due to the glass element that's in there. When you look at all the elements that go into um PCB lamina, do you see a fast route to increasing the volume? Or is this something that the industry is going to suffer from as long as this um hyperscaler boom for um for data uh data warehouses continues?

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 9:03

Okay.

Glass Cloth And Resin Bottlenecks

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 9:04

I think first off, uh based on the information that we have here so far, uh, we believe that this situation will continue until next year. So we won't see any good solution or uh a quick uh capacity availability this year. Um a few reasons for this. I think one is the uh the demand for AI continue to increase, right? And uh at the same time, uh besides the shortage of uh glass cloth, um, we have run into shortage of uh raisin, right? With the recent uh conflicts in uh the Middle East, one of the uh uh petrochemical complexes in Saudi Arabia has been affected. And so far, as far as I know, they have not recovered from that. Right. And this complex alone is supplying to uh like close to 70% of the worldwide raisin for uh laminates, right? So that is causing a serious uh shortages of raw material in order to build the copper clad laminates, right? So and we don't see uh a quick recovery. We have seen some uh new expansion. Uh personally, we have also uh visited one in China earlier this year. Uh they have a huge plot of land. Uh new uh CCL factories is gonna be built, but it's not gonna happen overnight. It's gonna be like we'll be ready probably end of next year. So yeah, I don't see a quick uh recovery.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 10:39

You feel you feel that the scaling of the supply chain is gonna happen faster in China uh than perhaps it can in Europe or the Americas, because it always does, and there seems to be that ability to build scale faster. But Altus, what do you see of outside of China in terms of companies that make copper clad laminate wanting to grow and wanting to expand? And do you see a a timeline that is any better than Raymond is seeing, or is it is it pretty much, you know, we're gonna it's it's gonna get quite a lot worse before it gets better?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 11:18

Uh so actually I really agree with Raymond because you cannot build the laminate or the same PCB, manufacture them in six months, even in one year or in two years, it takes a year. Yeah. So situation is pretty the same.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 11:37

Yeah, and it's a it's it's not just it's not just time, it's a big investment, isn't it? And what you need to make those big investments, particularly if you want to build laminate in Europe, is clear visibility, there's going to be long-term demand. And it sounds from what you guys are saying is that it's demand in 2028 that you need to be looking at and beyond um to ensure that investment now is is worthwhile. Um yeah. Yeah. And then you have to look no good.

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 12:08

Because I just would like to add, yeah, because advanced manufacturing decision must be made years before the market realized it needs them. Because if we if we wait, if we wait a shortage, it's already too late.

Policy Pressure For Made In Europe

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 12:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but absolutely it feels like you got that right with um with your PCB manufacturing facility. It's the it's the rest of the supply chain that weren't as um forward-thinking as you were. I think what's also interesting in Europe, and we discussed this in Brussels last week, is we're seeing CHIPS Act II, we're seeing the Industrial Acceleration Act, we're seeing different programs in Europe that require larger made in Europe elements. And as the EMS people look at their bill of materials and they know a certain percentage has got to be made in Europe, they look at the PCB as an opportunity to buy something from Europe because many of the semiconductors uh cannot be. The time scale for the industry to respond to that, even if it's not laminar, if it's printing circuit boards, is is quite considerable, isn't it? There's definitely a lag between um supply and demand.

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 13:22

Yeah, because you know Europe is investing billions into AI, defense, and data center. But there is you know, one simple question: who will build the hardware and where? Because AI needs hardware, and hardware needs advanced PCB. And advanced PCB needs laminate.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 13:42

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's that whole process. I think what you were saying, Raymond, is really interesting thinking about the resins, for example. I didn't realize that we had 70% dependence on Saudi Arabia uh for resins for PCBs. One of the jobs that you have to do that I think is really important in this supply chain um planning is look down the many, many tiers of the supply chain almost back to almost back to sand, um, you know, and figure out what the what the exposures are. I remember the first time I visited a Nanya PCB plant, they had a presentation in reception, and I think it was the the God made copper and um sand, and Nanya did the rest. Uh, I thought that was a really nice supply chain concept, but we're not in that situation anymore. There's a lot of in in interdependence, and there's a lot of geopolitical disruption plus market disruption

Supply Chain Weak Points And Dependencies

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 14:42

that exposes that. When you think about the printed circuit board industry, apart from the ones we've mentioned in um uh Saudi Arabia, where where else do you see those weak points, those exposures?

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 14:59

Uh in terms of uh the overall supplies, I think today the glass uh fibers uh still majority coming out from China and Japan and Taiwan. You see, the way when I start mentioning all these countries, we are looking at Asia. So it goes back to the question in uh how well is Europe and even US right trying to bring back, I mean, you're trying to bring back uh manufacturing, PCBs, yes, we have TLT, which is very good. But then the next question is where do you get the laminates? Yeah. I mean, we we have to go one level down and look at where do we get the supply of the laminates? Still, uh majority of this still comes from Asia. That's where I think uh, in terms of the uh uh, at least from what I feel, is that from the point where the government is not pushing or has not enough policies to bring this back into Europe.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 15:55

Yeah. And it's ecosystemic policies, isn't it? It's not just thinking about chips. You have to think about those chips going on sprinted circuit boards, you have to think of the other requirements that the EMS companies that assemble them have, but you have to think of all the requirements that companies like TLT PCB um have um within their supply chain. And it sounds like there is no quick fix to that, but it also feels like the medium-term policies perhaps don't go as far down the supply chain. Is that accurate? Do you think that's we've done a lot as an industry and through the Global Electronics Association to communicate the ecosystemic requirements to the commission, but do you think there's still a lack of understanding there? Patos, what do you think?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 16:48

Uh so today Europe talks a lot about semiconductors, and that's it's important. But semiconductors are just the only part of the value chain. And you are really right, Philip. Uh, because for Europe also need laminates, need advanced PCB manufacturing, and Europe needs assembly as well. And we need to complete electronic manufacturing ecosystem because if one part disappears, Europe lose control.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 17:22

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's it's it is bringing everything together and and trying to bring it all along at the at the same pace. I like the ideas, particularly around the Industrial Acceleration Act, where it is pretty straightforward to be defined as made in Europe, you have to have a percentage. They're looking specifically at a policy for automotive and EVs, where you know 70, 70% excluding batteries, uh manufactured in Europe. I think for electronics, it's then 50%. Um, and I know that when the EMS companies look at their bill of materials, they have to work hard to find 50% that they can purchase in Europe. I know a lot of big EMS companies are now working with the groups of PCB suppliers, including their European suppliers, to have a strategy to um, you know, help them do that and help them dual source. Raymond, when you zoom out globally and you see these challenges globally, you mentioned that you don't think the US is much better

India And The Long Timeline To Scale

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 18:24

off. Do you see any other regions? Um, and I'm thinking, for example, of places like India, where they are scaling their manufacturing ecosystem. Do you see them as another alternative solution where trading relationships, for example, between Europe and India are nice and strong?

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 18:45

Um India is starting. I think uh just just some days ago, I've read about uh the ecosystems in in India that they are also looking at going backwards in into the whole supply chain. So they wanted to have PCBs, they wanted to have the laminates uh built in India. Right. But they're starting now to look into this. Yeah, so this is it was not there. It was not there previously, but now they're at least starting to look into this. Yeah. I wouldn't say in the short term, I don't see that as uh as a replacement or a very quick solution, but in the long term, maybe.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 19:24

Yeah, it's interesting though, isn't it? When you look at the if you think that AI, and I don't think it's just AI, I think defense plays a role in this as well. But I think AI plays a very big part in it because you know, within a dental data center, there's a lot of laminar. Let's let's let's face that, and we're building more data centers than have ever been built before, and that's continuing to scale. One wonders if there's a somewhere in the next two, three, two to five years, perhaps a saturation in having enough data centers. I don't know if that ever happens because they seem to um have a voracious appetite for them. Um, but one wonders if we're we're in a situation where by the time the supply chain catches up, the demand will start to um peter off again. Do you think that's a risk, Vitalus, that we've got this real mismatch in timing between supply and demand? And um and it's really hard to pull the two together?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 20:22

Of course, of course, Phil, because uh, you know, like like it's all at the moment, you know, in Europe everyone is talking about chips, but chips is don't float and they need advanced PCB. Well, let's take one example. For one AI data center with around 100,000 GPUs that translates into around 12,000 servers, and that's about 200,000 advanced PCB. And these are not standard PCB, we are talking about from 20 to 40 layer high density, high reliability.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 20:59

So who are producing incredible amount of lamina, isn't it?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 21:03

Yeah, who are producing at the moment in Europe?

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 21:07

Almost not nobody, yeah, yeah, nobody. So when we look, we've covered the long term, and the long term or the medium term isn't great.

What Customers Can Do Now

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 21:18

When you look at dealing with the short term, how do you both as companies try to help mitigate the risk for your customers? Is it just a question of making sure that communication channel is strong and you can give them visibility? Or are there other things that that you can do to help? Because risk in the risk in the supply chain is you know top of agenda for many of many of both of your customers. Raymond, how do you how do you see that?

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 21:49

I think for for us, we have been warning or have been trying to uh inform the customer upfront. I think since last year we have been trying to tell at but at a more subtle. Way to inform customers to prepare and to place their orders much way in advance. But now we are actually going more active into this because of the uh the shortage has been filled now much more closely. Uh what we have also been trying to do with the customers is to um get customers to approve multiple laminates. Right. So that the the projects, the project is not locked into one sole material. Yeah. Right. So it gives the manufacturer uh a wider opportunities or flexibilities to choose different materials depending on what is available. I think one thing is very true, what uh Vitatis has been mentioned. It's it's no longer price, it's it's availability. Availability, yeah. So we have to work with what is available. So in order to work with what is available, we need to have more alternative solutions, alternative uh options.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 22:59

Yeah.

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 23:00

And are they responding?

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 23:02

Are your customers responding by giving you more visibility? Are you seeing longer order schedules?

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 23:09

Uh yes and no. Some of them are still stubborn. Yeah. But uh but yes, uh, most of them are actually uh giving more uh visibility in uh up to a year, and uh also willing to work on uh ECNs to change different materials to to have additional materials being approved for a single project, which is which I think they start to see the benefits of doing so.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 23:36

Yeah. But Tatas, are you doing that as well? Are you um asking them to specify multiple laminate suppliers and give you more visibility?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 23:46

So, you know, always we are trying to find uh the best solution for each Gerber file, I could say. And you know, is the main thing that the companies that plan to gather are the companies that keep producing when the market changes? And just start with laminate manufacturers, PCB manufacturers, EMS or OMS.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 24:10

Okay. And um, are you finding that you now have a much longer order book than you had six months ago? And I I know you guys have been on a ramp anyway since you opened the facility. Um, but are you finding that you're you're seeing orders that stretch into 2027?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 24:27

Yeah, yeah. And uh sometimes not just orders, but sometimes some capacity reservation. So yeah.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 24:35

Okay. And what does that mean for your plans? Does it mean you're you're already thinking of the next extension? Or how does how does that fit with your vision of um TLT when you when you first first built it? Um, I guess a little over a year ago you opened?

Vertical Integration And Final Takeaways

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 24:52

Yeah, so you know, overall we are speaking about uh vertical integration solution for our customer. Uh because now we have PCB, we have EMS, we have plastic molding, and we should start uh semiconductor and power model factories. So our target is to have everything in one place.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 25:14

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense, doesn't it? And I I think that visibility. Um, so last word um from both of you, Raymond. In terms of the short and medium term, what are you hoping will happen from a customer point of view and the supply chain point of view to make your life a little bit a little bit easier?

Raymond Goh, Chief Operating Officer, Confidee 25:38

Personally, I would really uh like to see customers more willing to accept changes, more willing to approve new materials, and uh, of course, the visibility uh as far as that they can stretch. And uh one thing for another thing is it's more of uh for the the whole industry because because of the current situation, there are customers or manufacturers who are placing orders that is not in demand. By doing so, you're just making it worse. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's more dependent. You're buying something that you do not need. So you are you're just making it worse for the rest of the people to try.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 26:20

Yeah, it's the uh it's the toilet paper shortage during COVID all over again, isn't it? It's panic, panic buying doesn't do any any good. I uh I really think it's the um specifying other laminates is a really important message, and I think that should be uh a relative easy lift for many um many customers. The last word from you, Vitalksis, what do you what do you hope from your customers? What do you what do you hope from your suppliers in the coming months?

Vytautas Ilgunas, Chief Commercial Officer at TLT PCB 26:46

You know, I could say maybe not just about customers or uh suppliers, but overall about European ecosystem. We need to support whole ecosystem: BCB manufacturers, materials, assembly, and semiconductors. Only then we can really change something.

Philip Stoten, Journalist and Podcast Host 27:08

Yeah. I think it's a really good point, Vitadison. I think when you look at certain parts of that ecosystem and supply chain, some parts are undervalued. Um, and I think if you're not thoughtful of the impact that has on the on the overall process, then those undervalued parts of the supply chain can um can can wither, and that's when you when you have problems like these. And I don't think this is the last problem we'll see. I think disruptions in the supply chain are part of life nowadays, and we have to we have to be ready for them. Gentlemen, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me today. It's been a real pleasure. Um, I hope we can talk again soon, and I guess we'll see you both at least at Electronica if we don't see you um before later this year. Thanks so much. Thank you.